New Zealand beer and chocolate journalist Luke Owen Smith interviews Phoebe Preuss of Living Koko. They talk about Living Koko's relationship with Samoan cacao farmers and Savai'i Koko. They also discuss Penina, Living Koko's non-alcoholic beer brewed brewed in collaboration with Brewicolo and made with cacao and hopped with Citra, Amarillo, and Ekuanot hops.

In this episode we talk with beer and chocolate writer Luke Owen Smith about pairing beer and chocolate, the beer and chocolate scene in New Zealand, the challenges and opportunities for both in a small market, and how craft chocolate can learn from craft beer’s growth and its mistakes.